In the MHV Podcast, we speak with leading founders, VCs and operators on their journey in Southeast Asia. In this episode, Jeremy Au, MHV Head of Strategic Projects and host chats with JJ Chai, Co-Founder & CEO of Rainforest.
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Jeremy Au:
Hi, JJ, really excited to have you on MHV Podcast. You are such an experienced operator and founder, and we're excited to be backing a founder like you across Southeast Asia. So I'd love to have you introduce yourself for everyone out there.
JJ Chai:
Thanks for having me and Jeremy. So I'm JJ Chai, CEO and co-founder of Rainforest. A bit by my background. Prior to starting Rainforest, about 10 years back, probably when most notable after trusting in tech, and then slightly longest in consulting and McKinsey. I joined Airbnb to launch Airbnb, the region, Southeast Asia, nine years back, when no one knew what alternative travel was or home stays were. And after that, joined the team, folks at Carousell about five years back, to help scale that up over four years, from Singapore focus classified app to regional classified leader. Spent a year at xto10x advising founders with the Flipkart alums based out of Bangalore for a while, and then started Rainforest a year plus ago.
Jeremy Au:
Awesome. And so we're both former consultants. I was at Bain, you're at McKinsey, but of course you're way more legit. You actually climb all the way from an associate, all the way to engagement manager.
JJ Chai:
A bit longer-
Jeremy Au:
Yeah. To a junior partner, right? And so you actually went there, you were a consultant, and there you were of that track. And so what made you say, hey, as a junior partner, I want to go into Airbnb, I want to go into tech? So what was that transition?
JJ Chai:
I think like tech was always the starting point for me, which was that my first career out of school was tech. I'm trained as a software engineer. I wrote code in my early days of my career. Always wanted to get back to that post MBA and doing some understanding on the business side of things. My early experience in engineering was that, if you're stuck within an engineering role and people make the wrong decisions around where to apply technology, it's a complete waste of your time. So you are coding stuff that doesn't quite make sense, right?
So that was why I did my MBA. Went on to do McKinsey, get some big picture of things, and always wanted to come back to a role where you can apply technology where it has the most impact. And when the Airbnb idea came out, it was a great one to take something that's already working in the US and Europe, and convince Asians that you can actually travel and stay in someone's home, and also rent out your home in a different way was an exciting prospect for me, and it was a good way to also just move out from advising to actually be in the hot seat and take up a responsibility either way.
Jeremy Au:
What was it like to be going back into tech after effectively six years away as an advisor, and then going back into tech? How was that like for you?
JJ Chai:
I think it was not too different. It was also a different type of tech, right? So it was much more on a business side, no longer writing PRDs and stuff like that, but having that understanding of how it works on the backend, it's always been helpful throughout tech, throughout my career, even though it's on the business side of things. So no big changes. I think what was most striking was just the lack of infrastructure to support you in a professional services environment. You have tons of support, everything from executive assistance to people to help you draw slides and stuff like that. You just got to get used to figuring out, A, tools, software, technology to make your work easier, rather than having a boatload of people behind in the back office to support you.
Jeremy Au:
Yeah. And there you are, of course, scaling Airbnb across APAC as the managing director, right? For Southeast Asia, India. And we know how huge it has become as a global business, as well as Southeast Asia business. One interesting thing that a lot of people ask both founders and operators is there are so many American companies that are looking for general managers and regional managers, right? What differentiates between a good company to be a GM or managing director for, versus one that's not so good for? Any reflections from your experience working at Airbnb?
JJ Chai:
From choosing the company or choosing the GM? Which side?
Jeremy Au:
I guess maybe both, right? Because, if you choose the right company, you can be a good GM for them. And I guess the right GM helps you, the company be successful for the region as well, right?
JJ Chai:
Yeah. I'll say some things are hard to solve, fully plan out. There's two different things. My belief is always soft, like the person and role fit to the role, right? And in this specific case, they were looking for someone who actually spent time in all of Southeast Asia, understood the different cultures, could have had the network in whether Philippines or Thailand, Indonesia, and so on.
Where I had, again, by chance had spent at least a year working with clients in these markets, had a network of people, had done consumer work, understood everything from how people did prepaid phones to very different infrastructures in each of these markets. And that was the soft key point for Airbnb, which is that in every one of these markets in Southeast Asia, it is a different landscape, and having the connections to get started in there was helpful. So that's a bit of the soft, where the fit came in.
How much do I know about travel? Very little at that point in time. So that's where the organization needs to take a bet around, okay, this guy knows something about consumers in each of these markets, but not so much in trouble. Can understand the tech side of things. So this guy would not be surprised that the tech team back in SF won't be able to solve overnight flip up new payment methods kind of thing. So I think it's about that kind of fit.
For myself, choosing an organization perspective, honestly, at any point in time, there's always all these organizations coming across to Southeast Asia to set up. They're looking for a GM and a leader. I think the key question is what do you want from a career perspective? What do you want out of it? Which is there are lot of organizations now, they're set up in Southeast Asia at a very late stage. And that's the typical setup, which is execute to something that solves is decided in some HQ somewhere.
The nice part about Airbnb at that point in time was it was free play. There was already very broad mandate, grow. We have competitors, we have soft copycats. We are behind. Your only mandate is get back leadership on the back of a global platform. We have no playbook for you. Go figure out. So that was the interesting part for me. So its all different types of preferences in there.
Jeremy Au:
Amazing. And there you've that note playbook, right? And you were the first employee in Southeast Asia. Any interesting war stories you have in figuring out Southeast Asia?
JJ Chai:
We had some amount of playbook from European counterparts and US counterparts around how to set up each of these. I think the biggest thing that we learned back then was just to focus on the right level of granularity. We started off, we needed to sort get everyone to use Airbnb or particularly on the hosting side, across Southeast Asia, but actually you quickly double click that. And actually you figure out the first few areas that you need to solve are really around where there is already latent demand or you can see the demand. So where the searches are, it was Bali, it was Phuket.
It was vacation rental locations across the whole region. And while actually those were, there was relatively good supply in some of those places, the quality wasn't there and not enough of understanding of how to use Airbnb. So a lot of efforts was actually, in the early days, was quite simple around focusing on these few wins, and learning to also let some of the other lower priority cities or destinations suffer a little bit, but focus on a few wins first, and then build up the rest.
So it was really that piece, and also being clear about what worked well from an Airbnb perspective, because there were also local competitors that were doing things differently. They were also building up in cities a lot more, or doing things slightly differently, but not focusing too much on that. And focusing actually what our users at Airbnb wonder, people in Europe, in US, they were searching for these things and solving from that. And then growing out of there, rather than being too fixated, what the other players were doing.
Jeremy Au:
And there you decided to join Carousell, right? And become a VP, SVP for growth strategy over four years. Could you tell and share more about that story to join Carousell, and what that was like?
JJ Chai:
Carousell was a great story. I had met them very early on as part of, during my Airbnb days. We had common parent investors, and they were asking about community building, and so on. My first impression was that, hey, this is a soft problem. My generation solved this with this app called, a website called eBay. So I was trying to understand what exactly changed here, but quickly realized after using it myself, they're like, okay, the web to mobile thing, obviously, now on hindsight is super obvious, but change everything around how you interact and what was available for you to buy and sell.
So having met them a year later on, they raised a Series B and needed to expand regionally, as well as figure out the revenue generating, this is model behind the app, lots of users, but still pre revenue. And so took on the opportunity. I had enough late night calls, US time zones. And at that point in time, Airbnb was a lot larger and a lot more centralized. So decisions that started making, coming out of HQ, which is the right thing to do in a global travel platform. So I wanted a new adventure and this one was a great one.
The backstory for Carousell has always, you've heard these stories around parents coding their kids for becoming entrepreneur. And when I heard about this from them, I was quite determined to help make it a success. So that future kids don't get scolded, right? For me, the main thing was how do we spend some time here, so that future generations can, graduates or even dropouts can just start a company and not get quarterbacked by their parents?
That's really one of the underlying motivations as well. So it was a fun journey joining them. Half I would say are a very different setup than Airbnb, and the market size in the US, and so on, to buffer a lot of things. Growing out of Singapore is always a bit tricky piece. So being great for users in Singapore market, and then growing the rest of Southeast Asia is always a bit tricky, given the differences from here. And then you go to Indonesia, is completely different.
Jeremy Au:
Yeah. Amazing. When you say tricky for those, obviously, going to ask that question when I hear you say tricky, what's one piece of advice for people who are growing out Singapore? What's one thing you've learned about growing out of Singapore, whatever that phrase means to you?
JJ Chai:
I have, even in my own personal injury investing thing, I try very much to discourage founders who are trying to build for Singapore first. It's a very small market in the global scheme of things. And even you crack it, Singaporeans love your product, it's very hard to make that work in the next market, because the density, the income levels, the kind of phones that you use, everything changes by a drastic amount. This is not transplanting from SF to Austin in the US. This is a completely different thing. So I think the starting points to the extent you can start regional, or even better start global, do it. Obviously, there's advantages to start in Singapore for certain categories, particularly those new energy water and stuff like that, but for software, my preference is that you start regional or start global, rather than just a Singapore solution.
Jeremy Au:
Awesome. Well, that's a great set of learnings for knowledge that you just dropped there. And then there, you've quickly went on to go to xto10x, to help startups and obviously just scale up. What were some of the key learnings and advice that you were giving out to help people scale up for that phase?
JJ Chai:
Well, I found myself learning a lot from the xto10x team. So they had scaled up Flipkart to decacorn and not just that. They were so very deliberate about what were the ingredients in the scaling journey that they themselves on hindsight looked back and thought, should have been implemented at Flipkart early on. And the way they put it was these are the things that, if we had known, would've been very different. Would've been a very different battle with Amazon India. And when I reflected on those learnings, was also very true for the scale up journey at Carousell, and to some extent, Airbnb as well, which is a lot of the focus in the startup tends to be the outputs, which is like, especially in today's world, which is how much funds you raise, how big is your revenue group?
How many users you have, but actually, when you are setting a startup company, really what you should think about is really the inputs, which is do you have good processes to hire good people, retain them, motivate them? Are you thinking hard about the structure of the company? Are you designing an organization? And boring things like OKRs and so on, performance review system. So a lot more focus on what goes into building the organization, what your organization stands for, and so on. And then of course the results matter, but rather than focusing on the outcome there, think hard about the inputs to setting yourself up for long term success.
Jeremy Au:
Amazing. And after all this experience in executive, in multiple, now name brand startups, you've decided to become a founder. So why after all this time you decided, I want to found an eCommerce space, helping eCommerce entrepreneurs fulfill their brand's potential? So why now become a founder?
JJ Chai:
I think in every step of how I have done things, I've found that the risk reward profile for taking more risks has been either by luck or not. Has been beneficial to me. And my thinking has been the perceived risk of taking high risk sometimes is not real, and what more high risk than starting everything from scratch? To mitigate that, of course I had to wait for an idea and something that I could actually be well suited for. And when this idea came around, the idea of taking something that's already working, it's a brand that someone has created, that's users behind it, and then scaling it up appealed to me. This was, again, very similar to what I've done in Carousell to some extent, and to Airbnb to some extent, proven in some form, and then scaling it up.
And the other piece was really around whether I had the belief around the why now? Why now for this particular model? And when I looked around, and this was in the midst of COVID already, everyone was, at least to me felt like a lot of people were creating or could create their own brands, everything from as simple as software, Instagram shop, selling cookies, because this is lock down and nothing else to do. You bake, and then you don't want to bake for yourself. You bake for everyone, to ordering small batches of products from China, and then selling on Instagram or on eCommerce sites was real. The cost and the barriers to actually create your own brand has completely changed. And therefore, creating this explosion on micro brands, but all of them also having the same problem, which is not everyone becomes the next Warby Parker brand.
Some of them get stuck. Some them don't really want to hire people, build a company around it, and didn't exit. So that was the why now. The why me piece was always around, okay. So I've seen some of this scaling up before and was super interesting. And then the third piece personally was thinking about how do I ratchet up risk one more level? I'm going from big core to global starting firms to solve emerging startups, well funded to smaller funded startups, to now, okay, what's the most ... You were thinking of most extreme. What's the most risky way you can do it? Setting up yourself and get going.
Jeremy Au:
I love you being very clear about your personal framework, about your personal founder-problem fit, and being comfortable that risk on one side. And also, I think, like you said, the fact that you actually are a perfect fit for helping eCommerce brands and solopreneurs also build out what they want to build as well. So one thing that we talked about before was that you've learned a lot from speaking with hundreds of them, right? Over the years, in terms of what they want and what they want to build. So could you share a little bit more about those insights that you've learned along the way?
JJ Chai:
Yeah. In speaking to all these micro entrepreneurs, I think other brands, what I've found is the extreme breadth of it. My initial thinking was these are hardcore hustlers, which is people who are, okay, I'm going to create a business, in the same way you're thinking about traditional businesses. People sell things and so on, but you actually see a very big variety. Everything from housewives who had extra time. And then they say like, "Hey, I'm going of create this kitchen product." And suddenly, they start selling a million dollars of it a year, all the way down to side gigs, people who are working in large organizations. Literally Facebook, Google, Fang type companies, and doing something on the side.
Again, building up a million dollars of sales on the side there. So the variety of type of tors was staggering, So all shapes and sizes, ages, and so on. I even spoke to one 82 year old grandma who did a stationary brand. She was selling high end premium stationary online, which was amazing. So for me, that was one staggering piece, which is it is really quite flat in the sense that anyone can actually come and try.
Second piece of it was really around the fact that it was actually so easy, as in, so not easy to be successful, but so easy to get started. So there are different levels of it. And the biggest hurdle was always that's not natural. Why do you start? It's always one of the questions I ask. Everything, from I had a lot of time to I had this problem. I couldn't find it on Amazon. I couldn't find it online for this specific problem. And then just the impetus from that to taking the first step, which is to make that first order of product and try it out. So it gets everything going from there.
And then the third piece is that the problems and the small scale level SME entrepreneurs or solopreneurs is real, which is there's actually very little ... Things are changing now, but there's actually very little avenues for finding working capital to scale out the business, very little resources and not easy to find good people. When yourself a solo entrepreneur, trying to hire someone is, like we talk about curiosity and next steps. Working for a solo entrepreneur, it's hard to find and see that.
So one of the biggest things they struggle on with is, you know what? I tried scaling my company. I hired these two people, but you know what? Before long, they move on to other things. I can't build up on it. So that scale issue is real as well, for these solo entrepreneurs. And they tend to like the zero to one, starting something new aspect of it.
Jeremy Au:
Amazing. And one interesting aspect, of course, is that you are providing that aspect of mid-size exits, right? That level of opportunity and upside for them as well, on top of these conversations in terms of the pathways as well. Could you share a little bit more about what that process looks like from their side?
JJ Chai:
Yeah. So there's just two different general groups, right? Those who very clearly want to exit their business, which is the idea, decided I've done six years of this. I actually don't want to live my life doing kitchen lemon squeezes or products, kitchen products. This is done. I want to move on to my next passion products, or some change in life circumstances that makes them want to exit.
In these kind of situations, they would look for different exit opportunities across globally, actually, especially if we're doing a cross border eCommerce brand. And then they'll come to us and ask for evaluation around their business. So from the evaluation stage, if they agree to solve the evaluation stage, we need about 48 hours or so with a certain amount of information. We give them an indicative evaluation.
And then we go into a 30 to 45 days due diligence to make sure everything's as expected, after which we sign an agreement to transfer the assets to us. And we do the transaction from there. And the payout is everything from some amount of upfront payout, some amount announce over the next two years, as well as we grow the brand and run the brand in there. And then you talk about the second group.
The second group are, those are not really motivated to sell yet. Usually, those conversations are typically around setting up for understanding the process, just getting to know things very simply. And then starting the early conversations around like, hey, what will you do if someone takes over our brand? What does it mean? And in those conversations, we tend to be just helpful in general to the business. There's no acquisitions, there's no deal structuring. We talk about what we know about across borders, and we're happy to share in those situations.
Jeremy Au:
Amazing. I think you're really giving people this option, right? Because they can always continue, to continue working on your own brand themselves, or the option to work with you, right? And Rainforest, to get options.
JJ Chai:
Yeah, and remember my thing around entrepreneurs is, A, my belief is it should be a path that's normalized a lot more. It's gotten a long way. In any form, right? You don't have to create the next Carousell. You're creating a small business. It should be a normal form, and I would love these guys to go and raise venture capital or make it a billion dollar business. So, if that's the default path, please, do go ahead and where we can be helpful, we want to be helpful. The exit is just an additional option for them. And by no means am I out there to try to convince everyone to sell their business to us. That's not the thing. We like to play a role such that, if you set up your own business, just know that we're here in the eCommerce world, there's some exit option for you.
Jeremy Au:
And one thing, obviously, with all the experience as well, is that you've also been able to do all of that. And what is the macro trends powering all of this from your perspective? Is it like eCommerce is going up in Southeast Asia? Is it cross border? What is it that really is fueling, do you think, this from the super cycle or trend from your side?
JJ Chai:
The analogy I always talk about is the app store analogy. In the past, to do software and distribute software, you needed to be Microsoft. You needed to get your software into boxes, print CDs, and you need distribution, big time distribution into shops, to people to buy it. So the scale at which you need to do this is much larger. In the same way today, right? What's lowered the barriers of it for this is, A, you have everything on the marketing side of things. With $10 of marketing, you can exactly target someone to buy your product or talk about product. You don't really need to pay for it. You can earn a distribution online.
The supply chain side of things has changed a lot. It used to be very, much larger quantities to order and manufacture products. You can now do this at a much smaller scale. Obviously, today's world, moving things around is a bit harder than it was just a year ago, but it's really much easier than five, 10 years ago, in terms of moving goods around and finding someone to sort everything out from production, inspection, quality, tariffs, everything. You can do it sitting here in Singapore, you can do this cross border.
And then the third piece is that the consumer willingness to try new things is real, which is there used to be a time where people would just buy the standard brands and you need some mega superstar, sports star to be on TV before you saw, "Yeah, I trust this brand." It's changed. It's now your neighborhood or your influencer that you follow, or your Hello Fitness guy on Instagram. So what builds trust and what builds a brand has changed as well.
So the combination of these three things of new channels to reach consumers, what creates trust and brand for the consumers, the willingness to try new things at a different scale, and the barriers to create and make new products has totally changed. And the scale that we should do it has created this super cycle of micro brands really. And there are some researchers, research that talks about how much of FMCG in the next five to 10 years will be captured by your big players versus the emerging players. Most of the growth, actually almost all the growth is actually coming from new brands, versus the incumbents.
Jeremy Au:
Amazing. That's a great insight actually. Well, that means it's a lot of exciting growth that's going to be coming here. On that note, I think one interesting thing is that you've also gone through this whole experience where you've been an executive watching founders fundraise. And now you're a founder who has recently gone through the fundraising process, and a common topic that founders have asked us to share is about fundraising. And so one thing that we've chosen to ask our founders to talk about is about your fundraising process at a high level, not in terms of the process, but any advice that you have in terms of how did you go about thinking about it? What did you learn from that process? So any thoughts or reflections about that whole process and from your perspective?
JJ Chai:
Yeah, very much so. I think, look, and I also speak from this perspective of having angel investor and talking to some of my, the founders I angel invest into. Realizing that for myself, because I've been in industry for so long, I have a bit more privilege around the fact that I know the network. There is some level of trust, so it is definitely easier on my end, but I started from the principle around who do I want as partners along the journey? So who, what kind of partners do I need along the journey
Obviously, there's the capital considerations, and so on, but we have a shortlist around what's the considerations around the partners to have on board? And very clearly it was really around people who knew the space very much. We would like to have people who've been operators before. Again, this is my own preference. This is also what I tell my angel investment, which is like, look, I'm an operator. I'm the founder. I understand what it means to be in your shoes.
I think that goes a long way. People who understand what it means to be in your shoes, around not everything is a linear thing. There are going to be hiccups. And when push comes to shove, when times are tough, they'll hunker down and help you sort of get through that, versus asking, okay, when do you solve it? Kind of thing. It is always easy to be the board member that points out in the backseat and is like, yeah, that should be higher and you should do more, but watch, right? So that's really the second piece.
And then the third piece there is really the source signaling and reputation as well, which is there are funds, also investors out there who just invest in anything out there, very different strategy. So having the ones that have a bit of reputation around being particular and deliberate about their investments helps for the next round of investments as well. So those are really the three things.
And when it comes to Monk’s Hill side of things, I had met Kuo-Yi long time back from my, during my Airbnb days, when I was at actually Airbnb as well, I also met Peng, right? Where I had some discussions with him back then. So always known Monk’s Hill as the operator-led or former founder-led fund. And that was really one of the big things that got it high on our list for us.
And, obviously, one of the interesting things you said is there's something that you advise other founders think true. What would be the, I guess, contrary sentiment I guess? Or what would be the common sentiment to that? Because it sounds like you're contrasting yourself to that view. So what would the contrary view of that be?
The contrary one is to chase valuations. I know it's crazy and a founder, you think about dilution here and there, or you don't think about dilution the first round. And then when you go to second think actually quite dilutive, but my general principle is to really think hard about the five, 10 year horizon, and think of it as a multiple multistage game to it. And that trying to be fixated in that round and that valuation is really the wrong game to play. Taking yourself, you play three steps forward. What do you need to set yourself up for the next three years and the next three fundraise? And being in the best position for it is the starting point. And when you put yourself in that kind of mindset, maximizing valuation in that round is typically not, not necessarily the best path.
Jeremy Au:
I think that's interesting, because when you talk about that multi stage over that thing, because my reflection as a founder, who's also fundraise, seed Series A, is that the real enemy is not each other. It's really the 39 out of 40 chance of failure, right?
JJ Chai:
Exactly. Yeah.
Jeremy Au:
The VC and the founder has really worked together to minimize the chance of failure and maximize the chance of the success together. And that's where the growing the pie is, actually is, versus if a VC just brings capital, then the problem is you maintain the odds of failure and the odds of success, which is not bad. You still maintain your ownership, but you didn't change the odds.
JJ Chai:
Yeah. I would go even further than that. My belief in the ecosystem in Southeast Asia is that it's so immature, that actually another group of investors that actually not only keep it stable, but actually decreases your odd, because they are just bad board members, or not ... Distracts you from actually executing, right? There's three levels for me, adding value and helping solve problems, and so on. Neutral, fine, that's capital. I think you do a poll, honest poll around experienced founders across the region. There's also this category down there, which is they press you to optimize your evaluations, help them with their markups on their MOICs, and so on, to look good. Not really thinking about the fundamentals of the business, which is, hey, you need to create good products for consumers and that gross valuation, not playing the evaluation game to mark up and look like a great investor. I think there is that group and it still exists in this part of the world. Hopefully, there's less of them over time.
Jeremy Au:
Yeah. There's a lot of truth there. And I think one interesting aspect about that is, over time, well, my confidence actually is that I think the system as it matures, information asymmetry will drop over time. Reputational, tends to spread. Founders talk to each other, VCs talk to each other. Long game.
JJ Chai:
Yeah. It's a long game, so you can play the short game. Those that play the long game will benefit in long run. Yes, I do believe that as well.
Jeremy Au:
Yeah. Just that the long game always takes a long time to happen, I think, so that's the frustrating thing for everybody, right? It's like, oh.
JJ Chai:
Always the quick wins and it's harder, but I think staying on the longterm path will play out. It's just there is always that more frustrating period at any one point in time.
Jeremy Au:
Yeah. Awesome. And on that note, I'd love to paraphrase I think the three big themes that I got from this entire podcast, to wrap things up here. First, of course, thank you so much for sharing your learnings from being a product manager in tech world to being a junior partner at McKinsey advising technology companies, to choosing to be the first employee in Southeast Asia and the GM for Airbnb in Southeast Asia, to Carousell as an executive, to xto10x, and just so many learnings and knowledge, just drop knowledge, just insight after insight each stage. So I'm sure it must be very helpful to lots of people along the way.
And then secondly, of course, we did a very quick set of discussions about why you chose to be a founder, and helping partner and growing value for eCommerce brands in two aspects. I think the first, of course, about how and why now is the right time for you to choose to be a founder and bring all that you've learned to the few, and the other side, of course, is that what you've learned from speaking to hundreds of eCommerce entrepreneurs and opportunity to help give them the optionality, the liquidity, and the growth opportunity that you're able to bring with your own skills. So this amazing partnership that you have there.
And lastly, thank you so much for also sharing your own experience as a founder and executive around I think the multi-stage VC selection, right? Being very picky, having high standards in terms of choosing the right VC to have on board, in terms of adding value and creating value for the company over multiple stages in the future, and fighting off the common enemy, which is the odds of failure/increasing the total actual value of the company over the next few years. And of course, our joint aspiration for the Southeast Asia ecosystem over the long term as well. So thank you so much, JJ, for coming on the MHV podcast.
JJ Chai:
Thanks Jeremy.
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